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stable
Defender of Loathing

Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1126
Location: The Kingdom

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:08 pm Post subject: Stagnation Reply with quote
mr skullhead wrote:
I'm sad to see ya go, Jimbowong, but I don't think this means KoL is in the crapper and "all the good people" are leaving. We have three goodbye threads on the front page, which makes it look pretty dire, but I won't be worried until the entire front page is goodbye threads... even then, that'd be about 100 out of 40,000. KoL is not slowly dying, kids. People lose interest in the game for a while, they leave, they come back. Witness the return of player#42, accordion thief, recently.

So, your saying that when the people who were around at the beginning leave, it isnt that bad? I mean i accept that some move on because they get bored, but there are a fair few that have left - i dont think all that many of the first say 20,000 players are still around and actively playing.
Also...i think you could probably quite easily cover the first few pages with goodbye threads if everyone in the game made one. It is usually only well-known people who make such a thread.

mr skullhead wrote:

As far as the "promises" made -- we try to give estimates on when things will get implemented. We have no way to be sure how long something is going to take, especially something as massive as ascension. We have tried to keep things interesting while we work on it by continuing to have special events, a new item here or there, things to keep people occupied while we finish it up.

But...you said at least a year and a half ago about ascension. I mean, i think you should have at least had something more to show for it - i would rather wait a month when i get no new items or special events, just so i could finally see ascension, i have been hearing about it for soo long now. I mean to all intents and purposes, the hype for it is so huge, i expect we will all be disappointed now - we are all imagining things far beyond what you could actually give us.

mr skullhead wrote:

Listen. We have to reserve the right to do what we think is best for the game. That includes working on ascension and taking as much time as we need to make it right. That includes abandoning the reset in favor of other game-balancing actions. Sometimes that means we're going to change our mind about something we said before, and sometimes that means deadlines get pushed further back as our plans and ambitions grow.

So...your plans grow and you put of ascension again. and again. and again. And you put this down to the fact that you are now looking at greater things? I think we would all be happy with a simpler thing that maybe in time improved and became better. But we are all happy with little things, and you know it - you keep us content with little custom items and things and cause a furore when you give out one little thing to someone. Stop making ascension better and give us some i dont know, tester or demonstration that actually means something - not just meaningless custom items and game adjustments. Balancing is important but its not that big a thing.

mr skullhead wrote:

If, like jimbowong, you're not willing to be flexible and give us the benefit of the doubt, you probably ought to leave. If you feel Betrayed or lied to because we changed our mind on something or pushed back a deadline, you should probably leave. It'd be sad to see some of you guys go, but the way we run the game isn't going to change and it shouldn't change. Look where it's got us so far -- 100,000 active players, 400 monsters, 1147 unique items...

The way you run the game has changed and always will change. Admittedly you have done some great things, but i hate to say recently that the really good stuff hasnt been coming at such a great rate - lets think of recent occurances, we have an adjustment to the shore drop rate, you altered a couple of quests, you gave out some custom items. Where is the new stuff, the interesting stuff that keeps palyers. And also, quoting statistics proves nothing, you have been around long enough to accumulate the monsters and items easily, and the players came because everyone loves the game at first and tells all their friends...but then later on, the game runs out of longer term interest and they leave.

mr skullhead wrote:

I don't want anybody to leave the game. I wish that everyone could hang out in chat, play the markets, collect rares, and just wait for ascension to roll out. I wish everyone would trust us based on the evidence we've provided so far. But not everyone will, and I accept that. Forgive me for being blunt, but if you can't wait, then don't. But don't accuse us of abusing anyone's good faith when all we've done is worked our asses off to make this a great place to hang out.

Hanging out in chat is fine, we have a good time there, but that is all there is after about 4months of playing. Playing the markets is good...but after a while you have got millions and have all your lovely items and get bored of the effort. Collecting rares is good, but it isnt all that hard to get most items - except the impossible to get custom items that you give out on the rare occasions. And WAIT for ascension! HAH! What do you think we have been doing for the last year or so! I could swear that you had this idea almost from when Kol really kicked off and started growing on a large scale.

You arent abusing our good faith as such, but you arent giving us any reasons to keep it. You give a very few limited players exciting things to play with, but the majority, slog through the game and get to the end. Then sit and wait for ascension. You have thousands of players sitting around and waiting for it.

The game is stagnating, I have to say. You say you dont want people to leave, but you havent done anything to keep us longterm. I think that we would be quite happy with some new and challenging thing every so often. Even if these are just the same code as previous things that you redo the words, pictures and aim of the quest. I know that you say it takes a long time to make things, but I dont see why you dont just re-use old code and put a pretty new front on it, to be honest, most of us wont notice.

Judging the response to this thread, no-one wants people to leave. But sadly, they are. No denying it. And you cant honestly expect us to wait a year for something? I know it takes time to code and test stuff. But you have only recently started testing it. Stop doing custom things that only keep a few people happy, and start doing things for the masses again. You need to change how you work - when there was only 10,000 players, its fair enough doing custom items and things, but now there are hundreds of thousands of players, and even if you gave out hundreds of custom items it wouldnt help anyone to be honest.

The community in my opinion is falling apart - this isnt entirely your fault as it occurs with any larger community, but, you havent helped by doing things like the lounge that take good people out of common chat - that really didnt help things.

Sorry for ranting. But i had to.

The only reason i am still here is because i am still waiting for bloody ascension to come into play. I completed pretty much everything god knows how long ago, but i still wait. However, i havent adventured for ages, i rarely enter chat now. You are losing even my belief in the game progressing. I have faithfully stuck with the game for over a year.

But, I am losing faith. There was a time when Jick and you would come into chat and talk to us, inspire us etc. Nowadays, you are aloof and disconnected. You stay in lounge or out of reach.

I think i covered everything there.

I am not saying that kol is bad. I am just saying that its going wrong, what has been made so far is all excellent. It is just...hmm false hopes and trivialities (custom items) that annoy me.

EDIT:: bloody hell i wrote more than i realised. hehe.
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Betrayer
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:16 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
People complain if they don't get their little crappy things too.

They feel they payed $50 for an art commission, which is true to some degree.

I would like to see new content put on hold and some fixes implemented while the final testing of Ascension is done, and then have that rolled out. I think fixing the stash and mall is more important then custom avatars.
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bobothepinkelephant
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:17 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
hey, stable, Don't speak for everyone, espeally when you are posting like this...

I, for one, fully support Jick and Skully in their endeavors, and am perfectly happy waiting as long as it takes for ascension, cause that just means they are trying their damndest to NOT disappoint people...

just cause you're impatient don't blast skully...

and another thing, don't you think more people would quit if they kept adding new cool stuff while working on ascension?

I find it odd that you are taking more offense to the way Jick and Skully are handling things, than the people that are actually quitting...

*edit* also, hasnt it crossed your mind that some of the stuff they are doing is actually part of ascension testing? They want everything to be perfect, and you cant fault them for that

Last edited by bobothepinkelephant on Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eggwhite
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:18 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
This is what happens, The whole house is burning now!
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LeGameboy
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Joined: 17 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:21 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
If you can't handle the fire, get out of the kitchen. ^_^
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The Lone Dungman
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Joined: 06 Jan 2005
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Location: Texas

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:22 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow, stable.... I disagree with you on just about every point. I've been playing for about 7 months now and I don't see much if any stagnation at all. Personally, I have no problem waiting for ascension and I think Jick and Skully have done a fantastic job with special events and items to keep us entertained.

I'd like to elaborate more but I have to go to work..... grrrrrrr
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kinky_sex_mace
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:23 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
BoBothepinkelephant (#324143), the Level 20 Seal Clubber
Account Created: December 03, 2004

Yeah, okay, talk after waiting for months and months and then having the thing you were waiting for and prepairing for removed.

Then continue to talk after more months of the next big thing that seems like it gets further and further away with every pushback.

I am not saying that I am opposed to Jick or Skully, I think they are great guys and make a great game, but complaining after months and months of waiting is entirely justifiable. Well, maybe not complaining, as you really only have grounds for that if you are a donator or somehow lost something to play the game. Anyways, it is like playing a board game that's ending continues to be 6 spaces away, no matter what number you roll on the dice. Wouldn't you quit after a while?

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I like the chat, I like my clan, I don't really play the mall cause of the bugmeat I have, but that was my choice. I will stick around because I like the people, some people are here to play a game though.
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stable
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Joined: 22 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:23 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
bobothepinkelephant wrote:
hey, stable, Don't speak for everyone, espeally when you are posting like this...

I, for one, fully support Jick and Skully in their endeavors, and am perfectly happy waiting as long as it takes for ascension, cause that just means they are trying their damndest to NOT disappoint people...

just cause you're impatient don't blast skully...

and another thing, don't you think more people would quit if they kept adding new cool stuff while working on ascension?

I find it odd that you are taking more offense to the way Jick and Skully are handling things, than the people that are actually quitting...

*edit* also, hasnt it crossed your mind that some of the stuff they are doing is actually part of ascension testing? They want everything to be perfect, and you cant fault them for that

I am not speaking for everyone. Although i do feel some of my views are shared to a certain extent.
Impatient i am not. I have happily waited over a year now for ascension - would you not start to get slightly tetchy waiting that long?
I dont think more people would quite if they kept adding new cool stuff whilst working on ascension - new quests and things would keep people interested, whilst also making it take longer til they reach the "waiting for ascension" period that everyone reaches.
I cant fault them for wanting things to be perfect, but, perfection is impossible and there will undoubtedly be bugs however hard they strive. And i dont mind them testing etc. But seriously, over a year! I would think there would be more to show for it.

And please dont assume i dont fully support both jick and skully. My support is only just waning after a long time of waiting. A long long time.
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Betrayer
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:24 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Bob, some of us have been around for awhile.

It's not unexpected to get a little impatiant when, a year later, it still says the Sorceress quest will be finished "soon."

Jick and Skully are driving people away. This is a fact. They are not doing it on purpouse, or to be mean, but that doesn't change the fact that people are leaving the game directly because of their actions.

To say that good people leaving isn't a problem because we get piles of new members every day is just foolish, and avoiding a real problem that needs to be examined.
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VornVolken
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Joined: 26 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Pretty much, you don't know what us old timers feel like unless you've played for over a year (or close to it). Me, it's been 15 months. I wholeheartedly agree with stable and Jimbo and Betrayer.

I mean, I would've retired by now, if it hadn't been for the community I know and the stat whoring I do. Also, the mentality that "If I don't stop playing, then everything I've done will be a total waste"...but it's hard. I myself have thought of quitting this game several times, and always its been the community that's brought me back, not the game. I nibble at these little special events, but they aren't enough to keep people satisfied for long, and people will leave. It's an inevitability.
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stable
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:36 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
That sums it up nicely Vorn. I have taken breaks and given up on game a couple of times where i stop adventuring and stuff for ages. But i always do my best to keep up with community and forums and chat. That is the only long term and interesting part of game left.

And also, i can understand how newer players do not understand my views. But when you have played for longer and done everything, then you will understand - as i honestly doubt you will get ascension within the next few weeks.

That word "soon" its so ambiguous.
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bobothepinkelephant
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:50 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Stable-i saw the word "We" used several times in your post, thats why i said you're speaking for everyone

Everyone Else- Yeah, i havent been playing for as long as you, this is true, but i think i have just as much right to comment as everyone else...just because i'm "new school" doesn't mean my points don't have some validation...i mean, you guys who have been around since the beginning have been able to experinece a lot more...Jick has done so much for you over the years, and now, he and his partners want to make sure their ultimate gift for you is perfect...because if it would have came out before, and had a ton of bugs people probably would have complained anyway...

My main beef was seeing someone just tear into people who have worked so hard to make this game as great as it is...if they didnt work their asses off, most of you still wouldnt be around...admit it...

As for new content, we have had a ton of new events in recent history, and i think they are going at a great pace...they had to work out everything in the game itself, before basically remaking it
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Edweird
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Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:55 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
People are expecting way too much out of two people. The past day or two I've read so many criticisms of the guys: that they aren't engaging in the forums anymore, they aren't replying to people's game suggestions, and that people are sick and tired of waiting for ascension to come. Those are very recent ones that come to mind. People need to give them a break, think about what (collective) you're asking for. It reminds me of my mother who complains about the state of health care and then pesters the doctor everytime she has a tickle in her throat. If they didn't have so many tasks piling up in their inboxes they could get the big meaty stuff done. Take some of the burden off them and I bet you'll see more things get accomplished.

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Succuba
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:56 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
It's sad that people expect so much from a couple guys that probably didn't expect the game to ever get this big. Especially when the game is free.

A lot of things have changed this past year. I don't know what anyones talking about when they say simple little things here and there. We got chow mein, tons of new booze, new quests, The Don, all those meatsinks. The meatsinks were an obvious way to try to avoid a reset. It's not like Jick knew "black sunday" was going to happen. I bet he had tons of things ( in his head at least) that he wanted to implement one day and boom... had to start from scratch because of the bug.

Before you go off bitching ALL the damn time.. ask yourself this. How much have YOU accomplished in the past year? Have you spent 10 hours a day working under the pressure of knowing that 1000's of people are watching your every move and if you make a mistake you'll never hear the end of it? NO I bet you haven't. Do you work under the pressure knowing that if you quit your current job you might be doomed to fail if you want to go work for another company? All because word will spread you can't keep supposed promises and you abandoned your last project, leaving tons of people sitting around whining and crying?

I know it's easy to complain and it sucks when you don't get what you want, when you want it. But could someone please spare me.. because the only thing that's making me want to quit this game is the fact that I can't read the forums anymore without every next topic being a complaint or suggestion.

I want my nice, fun, appreciative community back!

Edit: Sorry for the redundancy, but apparently I posted this within a minute or two of the above posters.
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Betrayer
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, I am expecting too much of two men. And Xylinia. And Riff. Oh, and Xenophobe is redoing chat. And the mods, of course.

I have suggested, several times, that they hire more assistants or get more volunteers.

I have also suggested they make more Czar accounts to sort the bug reports and whatnot from the actual PM's and make Xylinia's job easier.

Saying they are only two men is also a cop out. They have plenty of people willing to help, and recently, several of those volunteers have quit being mods or the game altogether.
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bobothepinkelephant
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:37 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Betrayer wrote:
Yes, I am expecting too much of two men. And Xylinia. And Riff. Oh, and Xenophobe is redoing chat. And the mods, of course.

I have suggested, several times, that they hire more assistants or get more volunteers.

I have also suggested they make more Czar accounts to sort the bug reports and whatnot from the actual PM's and make Xylinia's job easier.

Saying they are only two men is also a cop out. They have plenty of people willing to help, and recently, several of those volunteers have quit being mods or the game altogether.

First and foremost, the mods have to deal with enough...everytime someone says something along the lines of "5um0n3 g1v3 m3 m34t!" or "i just killed the hermit!!! ROFLZOMGLOLGPOAS!" they have to deal with it, wheter the people are serious or not...seriously, most of them work their asses off, and not only do they not help Jick with basic programming and such, if they were asked, and accepted, then chat and forums would be left in shambles, and jick would have to hire new mods, thus delaying ascension more to get them situated in their positions of new power...

Second, this brings up another point, if Jick cant bring in more people, because the dedicated ones would probably be too busy doing their daily rounds and living their lifes to do something for free, and to reward them would mean more time wasting bonuses for a few people...and if he brought in others to do it, they would probably either scam him out of his surprises (thus ruining them causing more bitching), or they would have to have everything explained to them...which would delay things more than Jick just doing it at his own pace...everyone has lives outside of KOL, but this, outside of having a social life, is what Jick does...

people have lives, and im sure these cats enough on their plates...give em a break
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Succuba
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:42 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok yeah, I know it's not really just two men.. but if Xylinia's busy handling Mr. A donations and Jick's Pm's, Xeno is busy redoing chat, quite a few are testing ascension.. then who's doing all the coding?

I also don't know what the specifics are for some of the volunteers leaving but I'd rather not pick a side.

Maybe they can't afford to hire more people.. afterall, Jick still has that leaking roof or whatever it was.

What he should get is a "suggestion" box and have an automated response that says "Thank you for your input, it will be reviewed at a later time." Then have it to where it automatically deletes messages that contain certain phrases. Hah..

Anyway Ok, I'll shut up now.
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LeGameboy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:45 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I think some of these people leaving makes sense. I wouldn't be able to play KoL for years on end without taking a decent break every now and then.
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AliceCat
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Joined: 22 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
You can't expect a volunteer effort from everyone associated with this game, Betrayer. You want real programmers, you have to pay real money, generally with real benefits. I have no idea what sort money Jick brings in with the Mr. A donations, but I have a feeling that it isn't quite enough to hire a full programming staff.

It's a free game, and Jick is under no obligation to keep updating the content. If you aren't happy with what you have, then feel free to go do something else with your time. Otherwise, hang in there and enjoy the show.
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I Lieks Teh Flaming
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:01 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Succuba is becoming my favorite. In a good way mind you.

I'm of the opinion that Jick and Mr Skullhead are doing alright. I don't feel any promises were broken to me, myself. And whilst I'm not in the year-long crowd yet, I'm about a month and a half off. It doesn't bother me that they don't interact with the whole of KoL on a daily basis anymore. I don't interact with the whole of KoL on a daily basis. There are chats I avoid like the plague, and a lot of times I don't have much to say anymore. Think about how horribly either one would be mobbed.

I happy we have their radio show, myself, where they take and answer questions. That's pretty good, I think. Even though I can't get to KoL radio, reading the report thread fills in things pretty nice. A lot better than a silent and faceless Admin.

I'm surprised Mr. Skullhead and Jick reply to as many threads as they do. Keeping up with this place is fairly hard. I don't read the forums regularly for just that reason, it's hard to keep up, without it being in forum dead time.

They probably do need more help. But good help is hard to find. Just because people volunteer doesn't make them good help. I'd volunteer for something, but they don't know or have any reason to trust me. And they have to find someone they can trust. Always. With no real reward in turn. That's hard to do with a labor of love. Especially if you're too busy to get to know people.

That's how I feel, anyways.
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Gib64
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
The thing is there are new players coming in ll the time. To many new changes at once it will limit the games to older players only. The only thing I do agree with is that Jick and Mr.Skullhead should get down off there high horses and TALK to people. It might help if they came to talk in chat like a normal player. They should also leave out the colors. I think seeing Jick: Hello newbie channel!Hello newbie channel! would frighten some people. That is the only thing I agree with stable on.
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CheekyJez
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:08 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Gib64 wrote:
The thing is there are new players coming in ll the time. To many new changes at once it will limit the games to older players only. The only thing I do agree with is that Jick and Mr.Skullhead should get down off there high horses and TALK to people. It might help if they came to talk in chat like a normal player. They should also leave out the colors. I think seeing Jick: Hello newbie channel!Hello newbie channel! would frighten some people. That is the only thing I agree with stable on.

I disagree. I'd much rather they spent their time working on the game than faffing around in the chat rooms. Having said that, I think it'd be nice if SOMEONE was faffing around in the chat rooms who had some kind of official capacity. Mod are there in an official capacity, but are FAR too busy moderating to faff. More faffing, I demand!
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jonnyJonny
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Joined: 01 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:18 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
/|\
/\

I think I'll make the above my new avatar. It's a stick figure who's head has exploded from hearing so many ridiculous posts over the last few days. Seriously, why don't you chill out offline until Ascension is up, play until you've had your fill, take a break until new content comes in, repeat.

Addressing a few points:

Q) Why make custom items and ignore Ascension?
A) Custom items require: a spot in the items table, a picture, a name, a small description and a power rating. I'm sure they don't take too long to do. They're probably a welcome break from coding anything related to Ascension - which could seriously screw up the game/upset a lot of people/etc. if implemented improperly. There's no chance for it to result in a bug, or in people abusing it (334). When you're working on such high pressure stuff, sometimes it's nice to take a break.

Q) Why are you wasting time with game adjustments (minor quests to open areas, drop-rates) when you could be programming for Ascension?
A) Why do you think they're doing all that stuff? It's for Ascension. Because Ascension is kind of like graduation for KoL - it's a big milestone, and they want the game to be perfect for it.

and:

/|\
/\

Q) Why isn't this game still as stimulating as when I first started playing it?
A) That's like playing Super Mario Bros. (or whatever you kids play these days) for over a year and complaining that it's getting stale. That's totally warped. It's _amazing_ that this game manages to hold onto your interest for so long - it _should_ be boring now. As you've been here longer than I have, I guess you've reached your breaking point. So take a break Smile

Demand) Stop doing custom items for individuals.
A)

/|\
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Spoiler:
Vino
) Lounge makes me feel left out.
A)

/|\
/\

--jj
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angrykittie25
Junior Guild Member

Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:50 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
So here's my thoughts on this, even though I've only been here for six months.

This is the first Internet based game I've ever played. A message board that I read periodically posted the link and people there thought it was pretty cool, so I decided to check it out. It only took about three days, before I was totally hooked. This game is like crack. Anyway, I completed the game some time ago, so now I play the market and read chat, I'm a bit of a lurker. As I started to hang out in chat, I learned about radio KoL. I thought it was the coolest thing that a game had it's own radio station. Then I find out that the inventors of the game have a radio show every week. I've never heard of an online game that does this, but there may be some out there. So every week people get to talk to the people who have made this wonderful game. They take time out of their lives to talk to the average players ( by this I mean non loungers and mods) and answer questions to the best of their abilities. They also do so many cool special events and a new item each month. But it seems that working on a completely new aspect of the game does not satisfy people.

I understand that there are people that have been waiting for a long time for ascension to happen, and for lots of new content, but @$%# happens. This is how real life works. Sometimes even the best of intentions get sidetracked. It may suck, but we just have to deal. Jick and Mr Skullhead do not owe us anything. They could just as well take this game offline and just leave us all to venture back out into the real world for our entertainment. They chose not to do this, and seem to do everything they can, as quickly as they can, to make loathers happy.

It seems that no matter how they approach adding new content to this game, people will always be upset and people will leave. If there were no new items or content added for a month or more, because J&S are working on ascension, there would be people in the forums complaining about it. If they add a few new items here and there and roll out some small changes that need to be done for ascension, but it takes them longer to officially roll out the entire ascension content, people are complaining.

As for people that think they are owed anything because they donate...I find this to be silly. Flame me if you want, but people donate to help the game they already enjoy, and for a snazzy mr. a. You may be paying J&S for the game by donating, but you are not paying them to have things done by the deadlines that you think they should. They made this game because they like doing it, you donate because you like what they've done; Not because you want things done by a certain timeline, even if that timeline was originally set by J&S.

I would love to see J&S in regular chat more, but I have the feeling that they would have constant blue screen if they showed up, or the chat would become lines upon lines of people asking them questions. I don't really see them being able to pop into chat and just have a regular discussion.

As for the adding more "staff" to help with the work load. Most of us don't know how much money this game brings in each month, so it is hard to say if they could afford to bring in paid help. As for more volunteers, I can see why they would be uncomfortable doing this with major parts of the game. What if someone decided to fuck with the game, or someone was in charge of working on a certain aspect of the game and decided to quit. Then J&S would have to try and figure out what had been done, deal with that person's work load while trying to find someone else to do that job. Most people involved with the game have real life to deal with as well, emergencies happen, life happens. Think of the bind this game would be in if someone was unable to carry the workload that was given to them, and just stopped being involved with the game. It would be complete chaos with that aspect of the game, and other people would have to sort out the mess. I there is a big difference between someone helping J&S test new parts of the game, than it is to hand them partial control of the entire game.

I think things are being done, we just can't see them as of yet. Why don't people just take a break from this game if you are so tired of waiting for the big A, then when it is finally rolled out, if you don't think it was worth the wait, then start the bitching. Give them a chance to show us what the wait was all about.

Okay, I'm done now.
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Contr!ckster
Defender of Loathing

Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 283

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:51 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Stable
Joined: 22 Feb 2004

bobothepinkelephant
Joined: 27 Feb 2005

Stable has been waiting over a year, bobo, whereas you've been waiting a few months. You may be prepared to wait another year for ascension but for older players the frustration and cynicism is greater and I think they need a little more understanding. I remember when Ascension was promised for Summer 2004. It's easy to get bitter with the creators when you hear the same claims again and again, never coming true. If Hotstuff was right in a post he made last week, Ascension could be a soon as 3-4 days away. That would please me as I started the game 24 April 2004.

There's a strong out-of-game community that's getting stronger every month. If you're burned out and need a break from the game you may not see that... It's natural to want to get away from the game for a bit - it's not a failure of the game, it's getting tired. It's Jick's job to make a game, not a community and should be judged on the game not the community. It's not his job to share his company to newbies but to make a game for them to play, and most newbies play on their own. He's made a good game, not necessarily a classic. The fact there's such a great extracurricular community here to appreciate the game is a bonus and enables us to make our own games out of the game which makes it a classic in a way.

If I have one disappointment about Kingdom of Loathing "the game" - not the community - which I believe leads to stagnation in a gaming way, and here I am judging the game (said enough times? Smile), it's the failure to engineer strategic- social aspect. In Kingdom of Loathing it has not been attempted. Cooperation needed for buffing, food and drinks, clan war is not cooperation needed to win. We see guillible people get scammed and there are a lots of generous people giving away free stuff (which of course is valuable but what happens is result of individual not group).

You can do everything from the Toot Oriole to the Naughty Sorceress on your own in this game. It's not social gaming and I think Jick designs it intentionally this way. To win Kingdom of Loathing it's just a bit more complicated than turning the pages of a book, except you have to click buttons to turn the pages. It's easy, that's the way Jick wants it. I think Jick wants to make the game easy with depth in the detail (references and combinations of items) and humor. It succeeds in all this, it's clever, witty, msyterious, loveable and addictive. However it's incomplete on the social-strategic side, player interactions. If a contender for a pulitzer prize, it's not a textbook game that academics will discuss until students snooze for its contribution to MMORPG gaming.

What stagnates the game is exactly the rule Jick has that an individual must be able to complete the game all by himself. You don't need to know what anyone else is thinking to make progress in a quest. Alliances are not needed. They are made outside the game. Social strategy is not needed for Clan war and PvP both are a numbers game. A player does not have to make a decision at any point in the game what she thinks another player is thinking and how she is going to respond. The social aspect there is is a selection of epenis contests. Kingdom of Loathing is more Top Trumps less Rock Paper Sissors. The lack of social-strategy is a bit of an Elephant sitting the room. Generally. the bigger epenis wins.

Is it possible to add player interaction into the Ascension game? One way would be with Clans. (Too late now, off course, I do believe Ascension is very near). Joining or starting clan could be made a quest; it could be a rule you need to be in a clan to ascend. The Survival of your clan would be the social-strategic aspect; a game of Rock Paper Sissors. In this example it would add social-strategic aspect whilst participation in it would be voluntary in the sense the clan leaders would be in charge and decisions would pass by the majority of players only interested in the book side. Clan leaders, and anyone interested, could face a social dilemma where clans are subject to a battle of survivial, need yet cannot trust alliances. In this game of social-strategic choices Clans that run out of "goodies" dissolve. To ascend players would have to pick a clan that survives.

You don't need to join a clan to win the game. At least half of what goes on in Kingdom of Loathing is not part of the official game. The MMORPG is that half The Mall, Chat and Flea Market are social but not an official part of the game - you won't need them to pass all the quests and Ascend. The aim of the market is to get the most meat/collections of items. Again, a contest of numbers. PvP is a contest of numbers and combinations. Clan war contest of numbers. It's numbers numbers numbers which leads to stagnation of the game... and the need forsome Rock Paper Sissors type interaction.

So, there are no strategic-social aspects giving the game social aspect. Jick is intentionally not making a game like that so I don't think this will change for me in the future. The majority who play don't use forums or chat, (majority?) don't join a clan. The game's made for those who go through the game single-player without contact with anyone, enjoying the quests and storylines like they're reading a book. That's Jick's choice. It does not make a textbook classic "game," unless we define a game to include an interactive (illustrated) book, in which case, though not what I want, it is a new and brilliant idea.
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chubbles
Defender of Loathing

Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1332
Location: Madison, WI

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:52 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Betrayer wrote:

Jick and Skully are driving people away. This is a fact. They are not doing it on purpouse, or to be mean, but that doesn't change the fact that people are leaving the game directly because of their actions.

It makes me very sad to say this is true; but it is. I have no doubt that Jick and Skully have put in a heroic amount of time pushing ascension through; I know the demands placed on the testers, having spoken with several of them recently (and being clanmates with one). But, just like in August (after Black Sunday), and October (when Reset died), people are leaving, and in more numbers than can be attributed to normal falloff.

Jick and Mr. Skullhead, you have created a passionate community here. Many people with no say in the game's politics, who have never spoken to you personally, come and post here, to have a voice in this little game you have created.

It's incredible, the dedication, the tenacity (the audacity, sometimes). So many people have stuck with you for so long, because you have pulled together a great bunch of people. And whenever one of those important voices leaves, it strikes at us more than a hundred newbies who never made it to the Sorceress's tower.

Ascension will come; most of us will keep waiting (I, for one, can wait a little longer, lest I go down in history as the poor bastard who was 26th most powerful when Ascension hit). But most of all, don't forget about these incredible people. The radio show was an important step in that direction; but I believe it's not enough. The more you post here, the more you pop in /normal, or /pvp, or /radio, and stay alive in the community, the more you keep alive the vital link between creators and players that makes this game stand out from almost anything else.

I walk into /newbie and hear people say things like "Jick is God" all the time...I don't think you want that, and I think it's bad for the game when that wall of separation is there. It wasn't always that way, but it has been for most of the time I've played here. People will hyperventilate some at seeing you back in regular chat channels, but they'll get over it if you're there a lot, and it would be a great boon to the game to have you back as a familiar face, a familiar voice to the community at large.

It would do much, I believe, to repair this gulf that is growing between the admins, who are working their asses off to please an increasingly unsettled populace, and the workaday citizens of Loathing, who have been game and lively for so long, but have lost touch with their leaders.

-#79514
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Contr!ckster
Defender of Loathing

Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 283

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:22 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm not concerned with lack of contact. Players should stay for the game. It's Jick's job to design the game not be an entertainer. He doesn't get paid for that!
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bobothepinkelephant
Guild Member

Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:23 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Contr!ckster wrote:
Stable
Joined: 22 Feb 2004

bobothepinkelephant
Joined: 27 Feb 2005

Hey that's my forum join date...my real join date has already been posted, ive address this whole "5hu7 u9 N3VVb" (forgive my horrible attempt at 1337 speak) argument...get with the times...

as for everyone else...if you were Jick, would you hang out in chat? The chats are seriously a headache, and jick wouldnt be able to do anything because of everyone just throwing questions and comments at him...hed answer the ones he knows the most, or that intrigues him ,and everyone else owuld be "Jick hates me!!!!!!!!!!1111 Crying or Very sad" Honestly give these people a break, they could easily start making the ten dollars mandatory, take away the Mr. A reward. or delete all of your accounts since you are unhappy with the way he runs things...you start an online game with hundreds of thousands of people, and see how much time you have for anything else but taking care of what happens in game...
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FireStarter
Defender of Loathing

Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 217
Location: A small self centered universe.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:23 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry Stable, but “real” stagnation in this game comes not from having nothing else to “do”, but having more than you know what to do “with”. Some of these guys are right, once you reach a certain point in the game there is nothing left to do but wait for new content. But playing the game the way it was meant means that you should never really be able to achieve that. Having meat and adventures should have to be mutually attainable, not merely using one for the other. Adventures to get meat, meat to get adventures.

A guy like Jimbowong, where does he have left to go? Through excess he’s ruined his own gaming experience. He’s the leader of one of the best clans in the game, he’s got items, he’s got rares, he’s got stacks of meat he’s sitting on and he’s even got his own consolation ribbon. What’s there left for a guy like that to besides reach that point where the only challenge left is whatever Jick introduces next. The game was never meant to truly reach that point and if you’d notice it’s many of the players that have reached that point that are leaving.

And as for the wait, it hasn’t been nearly as bad as some of you are making it out to be. When I started it was reset we were all waiting for. After that was dropped it was the idea of ascension. And since that and today we’ve seen the introduction or re-introduction of at least half a dozen new areas and literally hundred of items. So it’s not like Jick’s stagnating the game. He’s just not introducing things fast enough to please those who power game right through them twice as fast as everyone else in the Kingdom.
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